Point
d’ironie
A conversation with Christian Boltanski
Questions by Hans Ulrich Obrist
interview realized
for the catalogue of the exhibition Point d'ironie at the
International Center for Graphic Arts in Ljubjana, Slovenia, january 13
-
February 29, 2004. www.mglc-lj.si
Hans-Ulrich
Obrist
Do you remember the first conversation
we had about point d’ironie?
Christian
Boltanski
I believe at first it was linked to the idea of the artists’ book,
because artists’ books have undergone changes over time. There was
a time when these were extremely precious; you had to wear white gloves
to handle them, they were very expensive. That was the first stage. The
second stage was born with Ed Ruscha or Hans-Peter Feldmann, when artists’
books became cheap and infinitely reproductible, but were in fact printed
in 200 to 800 copies. I’ve worked a lot within these books. Point
d’ironie could have been, in practice, a series of artists’
books in 100 or 300 copies. But there came a time when we wanted to go
beyond that to reach a greater number. It’s simply a question of
economy of distribution. Today I think the Internet might replace point
d’ironie, because with the Internet one can reach an even greater
number of people. But point d’ironie achieved something important
at a specific time, which was to go from 800 to 100,000 copies.
HUO
There was also the idea of reaching other contexts and other geographies
where there weren’t any art bookshops. You wanted us to be able
to send the paper free of charge to art schools, to everyone… you
thought we should invent our own circuit.
CB
Because the number is so great, it is no longer aimed at specialized bookshops
only, or at art lovers, but becomes like a message in a bottle that anyone
might find in a café or receive through the post.
I will always remember when I arrived at the airport in Bogota: rather
than greeting me with my name, they greeted me with my point d’ironie.
That was because the point d’ironie was in Bogota. That’s
what point d’ironie is about: it travels the world and no one knows
where it’s going to end up. Most of the time, it ends up in the
bin, but one never knows who has hung it up on the wall.
Near my home, there is a psychiatric clinic. One day I went past it and
saw a whole wall of my point d’ironie. In other words, a psychiatrist
thought it might be a good idea to cover a wall of his office with my
point d’ironie. I have never met this man, and I don’t think
he is particularly interested in art. He must have found it one day in
a café and took thirty copies of it, and it looks good on a wall,
that’s it.
HUO
Let’s talk about the two issues you made, which are similar but
also different at the same time. The first one forms like a serial image,
we could indeed hang it like wallpaper, whereas the second one is almost
abstract until we form the one unique image.
CB
In both, because I like to complicate things, in order to have the full
image, you have to take two copies of point d’ironie. If you take
only one, you have only half of the image. In the first issue, a part
of the image is visible even with one copy. In the second issue however,
with one copy, not only do you have only half of the image, but the image
isn’t visible. In both cases there was the desire to complicate
the system a little – the paper could be read as a unit, but at
the same time one copy is not sufficient.
If I remember correctly, the idea was that, to produce in 2000 copies
or in 100,000 copies, there wasn’t a big difference in price. So
in that case, we could produce in large quantities. This is a general
rule in publishing today -- the problem is not to produce a book, but
to distribute it. To produce a book of poetry in 100 copies or in 20,000
copies is the same price, but how do you distribute a poetry book in 20,000
copies? What we brought about with point d’ironie is an advance
in distribution. As far as the fabrication is concerned, other projects
with a similar spirit had been done before, the conception is not an extraordinary
thing. The extraordinary conception is the enormous number of copies and,
thanks to agnès b.’s network, the possibility to send them
to countries all over the world.
HUO
A bit like with DO IT actually. Through the DO IT book, the exhibition
goes out into the world, it’s a mobile exhibition like point d’ironie.
CB
Yes, because the idea was to do something visual (even if they were not
all like that) with which anyone could make his or her own exhibition.
It destroyed the idea of original. Classically, if you have a photograph
or a print, it’s in fifty copies; you are proud of it, you can sell
it. The large number abolished that, and enabled each student or employee
to hang it up at home. The material no longer has any value. The more
you have, the less value an object has, as we all know. I think it was
quite a rare idea in art, because art always functions in small circles.
When you say “I produced this video in an edition of ten”,
it seems huge. Art is always about small numbers, even when dealing with
lithography and engraving. We tried to work in almost industrial quantities;
when you go beyond 100,000, you reach industrial numbers. It’s a
little evolution in the art world.
It was not only about form, because the rule of form is rather simple:
to make a paper like those that already exist in several countries, with
as little text as possible, rather more with images…
HUO
… which could be a newspaper and-or folded posters simultaneously.
CB
That was the rule of the game at first, then to print off large numbers,
and then to scatter it around the world.
On day it would be amusing to research all the places where people decided
to put it up on the wall. There have been exhibitions of point d’ironie
that we know of, but I am convinced there have been lots of private exhibitions.
There may have been hundreds of exhibitions in unlikely places.
HUO
In a restaurant in Tokyo, there was a whole wall covered in the issue
by Louise Bourgeois. It goes to the extent where, for example, the point
d’ironie by Gabriel Orozco was used as wrapping paper.
CB
Yes, I remember one Christmas when everyone took it to wrap presents!
These utilizations are something that seemed interesting and innovative
to me; the object no longer has value as such, it only has an emotional
value. With few exceptions, no one ever took that point d’ironie
thinking it would be of saleable value one day. It is a disposiblething:
you hang it up, it gets damaged, you throw it away and put another one
up. That is why it is something new in the art world.
HUO
We now have a list of approximately forty issues, most of them created
by great artists. There was a mass distribution of a million copies over
the summer at Documenta11. At the moment we are preparing the retrospective
in Ljubljana. Where do we go from here? Wouldn’t it be necessary
to go elsewhere after a certain point -- for it to become a real paper,
or a different kind of tool… to change our strategy ?
CB
I think point d’ironie should evolve. It’s a good club, and
I think that today there might be other things to find. It could be good
to play around with DVDs and CDs, which have become cheap. Indeed, when
the Inrockuptibles [French weekly mag on culture] put a CD in their magazine,
it’s a bit like a point d’ironie if you will.
What is also wonderful, is that the name of the artist is written in very
small letters, and that the majority of the artists are known within a
rather small circle. Most of the people who took the issue by Orozco had
no idea that it was by Orozco, they took it because they liked it. They
picked it up like one picks up an advert that one likes.
HUO
Is it important for you that the pieces assert themselves independently,
rather than through the name of the artists ?
CB
Yes. For both issues that I made, I thought it was important that they
be visual.
HUO
I would like to talk about your first issue, which seems a little more
abstract at first glance.
CB
The second one comes from an image I saw in a documentary on television,
that moved me. Two young people dancing. But outside of that, what interested
me was that the image is like a key to a secret message. You have to discover
the message. When you look at the cover of the paper, what you see is
rather pretty, but it’s like a Chinese painting or an abstract painting,
sort of refined. When you put two copies together, and look at them from
a certain distance, you see an image. It’s the coded message, the
secret, that was important to me.
HUO
Thank you ever so much.
[END]